Ep. 2: Misconceptions, Hand Signs, and Success - Oh my!
In today's episode, we are exploring some misconceptions we've heard about elementary music, how effective are hand signs, and what does a successful lesson look like?
[START TRANSCRIPT]
Amber: Level up!
Brittany: We are getting our levels and Britt’s much quieter for some reason!
Amber: Level up!
Brittany: She’s much quieter!
Amber: Level up!
Brittany: Level up!
[INTRO MUSIC]
Topic of the Day: Misconceptions about Elementary Music
Amber: Yeah, we're gonna get better at this overtime.
Brittany: I actually think we’re going to get worse.
Amber: Okay. Well, hello! I'm Amber.
Brittany: I'm Britt.
Amber: Welcome to Patterns and Practice, a podcast where we share a candid snapshot of our experience as music educators.
Brittany: We will dive into a variety of topics, research, and even Reddit in the hopes to expand community, knowledge and joy in our profession.
Amber: And boy, howdy, we have a lot of joy.
Brittany: What do you mean? You know what, take that back. I'm bitter.
Amber: Oh. I’m not bitter.
Brittany: And I am. Is that a real song?
Amber: Yeah, it's from the rocker.
Brittany: I'm not familiar.
Amber: There's a song that one of the kids writes because they're like in this rock band and he's like doing it as a slow, like “I’m not bitter.”
Brittany: Okay
Amber: And then the drummer who was Dwight Schrute is like, “No, man, we gotta do this loud.” And it turns into this little thing.
Brittany: So is it an office thing, or…?
Amber: No it's from the movie, “The Rocker.” Dwight Schrute, Rain Wilson, the guy.
Brittany: Yeah, this is actually a multi-universal something.
Amber: So what are we talking about today, Brittany? Aside from movies.
Brittany: Actually only movies.
Amber: Oh, okay.
Brittany: We–you know what? We should talk about movies. Like all of the music movies in the world. Anyway, I want to watch just strictly “Drumline.” ANYWAY misconceptions about elementary music.
Amber: What do you mean? Everybody understands elementary music, right?
Brittany: Yeah, and it's such an easy thing to do.
Amber: Yeah, it's easy. You don't need a degree.
Brittany: You’re just playing all day with kids.
Amber: I mean come on.
Brittany: You seem to have a lot of feelings about this.
Amber: I'm gonna cry over my microphone. Uh, no, there are a lot of feelings because as somebody who was planning to be a secondary teacher, I think even my perspectives of elementary music changed once I finally landed a position in elementary music.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: So I'm not sure. There's there's a lot to that goes into it, and I think if we were to take just like a survey of elementary music teachers I think we would find a lot of different perspectives because there's some people who are in it and there are some people who are not in it that would give very different responses because they see it as kind of like a stepping stone into being able to be a band director, like doing your time.
Brittany: Being a “real teacher.”
Amber: It’s like, I hate that idea that elementary music is like this, “doing your time” and it's like a prison sentence, almost.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: And you have to do it in order to truly earn your title as a band director or an ensemble director.
Brittany: And this is a little bit like continuing off of the conversation that we had last time about our Reddit Post with a person who was going into elementary general music and trying to figure out what the best way to approach it would be. So I feel like this is a good next like thing to just bring up.
Amber: Yeah, because I think there are people who are searching for jobs right now and there are people who have accepted jobs as elementary music teachers who might have some pre-determined opinions without the experience. And that's okay, we're human, but I think maybe we can shed some light, and hopefully educate some of our peers and colleagues about how they can work with us to make an even better program, because I think our program does a really nice job for the most part–
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: –of acknowledged that elementary is a really strong foundation for what happens in middle school.
Brittany: Right? And it's a real job. It is something we are paid to do. It's an actual position. And our–I mean, our lives are dedicated to it essentially. That's what we're going in and doing every day. It's not just something that's being tossed around is like “go, have a good time.” Like nobody gets paid to do that unless you're working at a trampoline park, or even a skating rink.
Amber: Oh gosh. So one of the misconceptions I hear all the time is we're just playing with kids all day.
Brittany: Tell me how that's true, and then tell me how that's not true.
Amber: Okay, let me tell you how it's not true. The playing part, when you hear the word play, what comes to mind?
Brittany: Horsin’ around, Amber.
Amber: Yeah, we're just horsing around. We're just entertaining children, and that's just not true. There is a part of engagement, but I think if you go into a really good elementary music teacher’s classroom, it's gonna look like they are just playing. But really, those kids are engaged in multimodal learning and kids learn through play. It's something that we train out of them, and I think a lot of secondary ensembles would benefit from having more play in their classrooms. They might feel more comfortable improvising and exploring rather than fixing themselves inside of this rigid system.
Brittany: I don't wanna say, like it tricks kids, but it engages them. I mean, I will find that a student will be more willing to engage with something that's play-based, to be like, oh, you're gonna sing the resting tone when I do this. Oh, you gotta when you're playing versus when you're just like sing the resting tone, you sing it, do it right now.
Amber: I don't wanna be in your classroom.
Brittany: You can't see my gaze, but it is unsettling.
Amber: We live close to a museum dedicated to play.
Brittany: My husband went and when he got he was buying books and stuff because that's what the man does when he goes to a museum of play. And he bought a book on play to learn more about the processes in the importance of thinking and play and how that changes kids' brains and does such wonderful things for them. But it–it's just a really cool thing to think about. Like that is the way they see the world, and that is the way that they can engage with the world that will help them to learn more. I don't know if that's scientifically proven, but like–
Amber: I mean, there are journals of play.
Brittany: Right?
Amber: So I do think, I haven't read the literature, but I do think that there is a scientific basis around children learning through play.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: And it's unfortunate that when people do come observe us that that's all they see. So I think one way to combat that is better education in universities about what to expect in an elementary music, Kodaly, Orff and Music Learning Theory, and Dalcroze. Like they have awesome workshops and programs to help people understand that more, but if you don't know that it's a thing that exists because your professors in college didn't tell you that it exists, it's hard to find that thing.
Brittany: I would also say that between all of the things that I have seen on social media or otherwise from Kodaly and Orff and MLT and and Dalcroze.I've only been to one Dalcroze workshop, but we were playing the whole time. Like we were playing a game and interacting from one person to the next to a steady beat something through a game. It's a lot of that. Yeah.
Amber: And I want to be careful that playing isn't always just game. No, it's it's not. There's there's different components, there's like anticipation, there's novelty, there's gestures. So and there's just so much that goes into it that we thoroughly think about the things that we're doing to the extent that we're not just doing it on a whim. It is whimsical, but–
Brittany: Add a little whimsy to your day.
Amber: What were some of the misconceptions that you hear a lot of the time?
Brittany: Uh, as a band person, elementary music being a stepping stone to “real programs,” or just to be a feeder to a program.
Amber: I hate that notion. I wish I could be less candid about it, but I hate it.
Brittany: Yeah. I don't want to use the wrong terminology, but every time I think about elementary general music, I think about how gangster it is.
Amber: It really is.
Brittany: And I use that term because I mean how many people can get a small herd of 25 children
Amber: And sometimes 30.
Brittany: I mean, if you're running ensembles, 50 to 60.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: You know that from your 100-piece choir there.
Amber: Yes-Yeah.
Brittany: But getting them all to a place where you are achieving something together musically, and doing it well.
Amber: Yes. And across very different developmental stages, like kindergarten is very different from second grade, and second grade is very different from fourth grade.
Brittany: That is something that when I talk about or I tell people what I do and I'm like, yep, it's K through four, and they're just like, “You’ve got a spread.” Like that's K through four is not the same as nine through 12. Nine through 12 seems a lot more…
Amber: There’s stabilization there.
Brittany: Right, and there might be some maturity differences between ninth grade and 12th grade, but like, kindergarten is very different from the second grader first grade. I would do some activities with first grade that I would never even consider doing in kindergarten to first, just management-wise.
Amber: It’s the wild, wild west. Yes. But then there are some things that work with kindergarten and then you can if you have a nice scope and sequence, or even an understanding of the skill learning sequence, that you can be like, “I can do this tune with kindergarten, but now I can take it and sprinkle it into second grade with a different focus.” So it's hard to think of it as a feeder, and I think that's where we get in trouble sometimes and why these conversations of music literacy get really hazy because from my experience, secondary teachers really want their kids coming in with great instrument, performance, technique, great breathing, um, they want them to be able to read music and it's simply it's that's not what literacy is.
Brittany: Do everything for me so that they are ready to go.
Amber: Oh my gosh.
Brittany: And this is not a reflection on the people that I work with right now. Not at all.
Amber: This is a culmination of our experiences as a whole, and it might not even reflect people that we have directly worked with. It's just something that we hear very frequently from people.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: So, but going off of that point as well, thinking about repertoire–
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: –and how a lot of people view what music we do in our classroom as childish.
Brittany: They're children, but they're–that's the thing. It's like there are some things that are babyish, you might be, like, picking rep for my fourth grade chorus is always like a weird thing because if you throw a tune that they really like their way, it's not babyish, it's just a good time, and they don't even know what they're doing. They are just enjoying being a part of it. But a different grade level might be like, “that’s a baby song.” But like, you can't do that, but like, again, it children's music. They are still children.
Amber: Right.
Brittany: We, you have to do things that have meaning and matter and that's the connection part of your standards, whether national standards or, you know, New York State standards for us, the connecting is important and you want things that have value and that mean something. So it's not just very, you know, empty and we're just singing this song to sing it.
Amber: Right. But at the same time, they're children. You need–there are songs that are appropriate either for their range or for their ability level or for their engagement.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: Because they’re children.
Amber: I think of that as well, like, I think a lot of people are used to hearing “rain, rain, go away” or MI, MI, SOL-SOL, MI. But in our classrooms we are using a very–I would say complicated repertoire.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: And I mean complicated in the way that if I were to present it to an undergraduate student, I think our music would be more challenging for them or the music that we choose to use in our classrooms would be more challenging.
Brittany: Yes
Amber: Because we are choosing music in Dorian, Mixolydian, Phrygian, Lydian, and we're choosing music that isn't uneven meters, like five-eight and seven-eight. And I don't think a lot of people see that in the elementary music setting and just revert to the SOL-MI’s because it is a very established practice that seems attainable for children. And it is very attainable for children, but also if I don't find it engaging for them, but I also don't find it engaging for myself.
Amber: Right. And I think that's part of it, too, is the repertoire has to be engaging for both parties.
Brittany: Yes, you have to enjoy what you're doing.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: If you're going to be teaching it, if not for a year, then for every year for the rest of your career, right? I was thinking about this because I did a video talking about how I planned for general music. And part of me felt like when I was thinking through the process because for LSAs, you have an LSA and then you find repertoire that matches the LSA, which means that you're matching the skill set that you are trying to accomplish and teach as part of the context for the musical skill that you're working on.
Amber: Sure.
Brittany: And in music learning theory, the skills are tonic and dominant-based in major and minor tonalities, at least for the first set of LSAs. Versus the, I don't know if it's like ‘melodic bricks’ in Orff–
Amber: I think they call them pitch sets.
Brittany: Pitch sets.
Amber: Okay, I–but I'm not sure of the terminology either.
Brittany: But you’re right, it is just that SOL-MI, and then you add one more thing. But at the same time in the MLT side of things, because we believe it as a language, whatever you give to your students, they will learn. So like on that philosophy side of it, you need to wash them with all of those patterns and give a little bit more. I feel like it's a little more complicated thinking-wise, or at least I find myself spending a lot of time finding a good rep, but once you get it, you have it for your book. I think it's a new teacher or something, maybe more so than it is a forever something.
Amber: Yeah, I don't know.
Brittany: There's just a lot of thought to it. Which is why, again. GANGSTER.
Amber: It is so much. There is a lot and I don't think the repertoire has to be childish or easy or simple. I think that the repertoire can be really robust and engaging for both people. And if it's not, it's gonna show up. And I think that's when you run into the other misconceptions that we've talked about where it will look like we're playing or these things are just stepping stones because they're not engaging and we're kind of just complying into a system.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Any other misconceptions that you've heard of?
Brittany: Well, I don't think anything useful is being taught in elementary music.
Amber: I am putting in my two weeks RIGHT NOW.
Brittany: I only read exactly what we wrote in the show notes and I'm being attacked.
Amber: Oh, oh, I remember this. We were talking about this and that we don't teach anything. Like we don't teach anything.
Brittany: Oh, no. Yeah. I hear that a lot.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: And I would like to argue that communication between elementary and middle school is can be, not is, but can be abysmal.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Those teachers may never communicate with each other to establish some sort of connection of skills.
Amber: Well, it's true. And I understand, like, both parties are extremely busy, right? Oh, yeah, that's I think that's a common understanding that we can all get to, but I think in order to have quality programs and to feel fulfilled and not burnt out in our positions, we need to have an open dialogue between the vertical or the horizontal core programming of our departments. So like if you're teaching K through five and you never talk to the other people in your program and you never try to come to a commonplace or a common goal. It's going to feel very isolating and frustrating.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: And I know that it's difficult to do and some districts are really great about promoting that vertical alignment and some are not.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: So some of it's on us and some of it isn't, but I think it's something that we should be aware of. I mean to understand that in elementary music, we are teaching a lot of things. And I think part of it requires universities or even just practitioners to learn more about it period. When I was an undergrad, I only learned about secondary music. I didn't learn much about elementary music. I was fortunate that what I did learn was very quality and was highly advocated for by Heather Shouldice. Like she came into the position advocating that all of the students within the university program should learn about elementary music. And I agree with that statement, because if you are certified K through 12 it is very silly to know nothing about what happens in K through five music.
Brittany: Right. Where so many foundational skills are being built. And in some I mean, we know, as MLT people about musical aptitude and musical aptitude, you are able to have an effect as a teacher on musical aptitude until about nine years old for students where it really starts to settle out. So part of the things that we are trying to do are to help guide students and give them musical opportunities to build and grow doing that. And then after that continue to build skills, because, I mean, aptitude might not change and it settles there, but their musical achievement can continue to grow.
Amber: Yes. And I think also coming at music education through a perspective of “everybody is musical.”
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: Is something that's really powerful for our foundation that I think would be really great for a lot of not elementary, a lot of secondary teachers to also embrace short to some extent.
Brittany: Sorry.
Amber: No, go ahead.
Brittany: I was just gonna ask, what would you think are the most important skills not reading-wise that students get out of elementary music?
Amber: I think our students have a great sense of tonality and by, through extension of that, I think they leave with better intonation skills, because I think intonation directly transpires into what they need for a secondary ensemble. And that is there, you can tell in the error detection that they can do by themselves without having to rely on a teacher because we are facilitating their audiation development. So for them to self-correct, that tells me that they've learned something.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: So those are two skills like off the cuff that I can think of. Heck yeah, man.
Brittany: For me, I think being a music participant is really something, and that kind of goes in with the sense. Like they have a sense of what is not necessarily right or wrong, but how to participate when someone is making music. I mean, something I learned a lot with the Orff stuff was just like, you are able to just jump in to a musical activity and get in on something rhythmically or get in. And I got that from like the set–here was like a set of name games something I did. I think his name was oh Doug something. He's a really wonderful–he's a really wonderful or person I'll put it his stuff in the in the show notes because he's great, but like just going around a circle and being able to maintain a steady beat as you are chanting from one person to the next, like that's a skill in itself.
Amber: It is.
Brittany: But in order to play games with people in order to, you know, play an instrument while somebody is at a community market and to jump into those situations and participate whether stylistically or even to a study beat. I went to an activity on the Fourth of July where some we were singing it was like a singalong of patriotic songs.
Amber: That's fun.
Brittany: And there was a person playing tambourine and it was really not it. And it was like, “oh, you really don't know what's going on.” And like, great for them to participate and to feel like they can. But at the same time, like how different would their confidence be? Because they looked like they were not confident. How great would their confidence be and how great would their accuracy be if they had more experience participating musically?
Amber: And you think that's something that if they had a better experience in elementary music that would have changed
Brittany: Possibly?
Amber: Yeah, yeah, I mean, hard to say, but it who’s to say?
Brittany: Who's to say?
Amber: I think part of that is the last misconception I'll bring up is that you are either talented or you're not.
Brittany: Ouch.
Amber: I know. I really struggled with that. Like all throughout middle school. I was terrible at the flute. like absolutely awful.
Brittany: She's so good at the flute right now.
Amber: I could not read the music and play my flute. I could not do it. And I did not have a consistent elementary music teacher. I had somebody from I think kindergarten to first grade and then they retired and then I had somebody who I thought was really cool, but seemed like a first year teacher or like they were kind of figuring their stuff out. Which happens. And then somebody who was an ensemble teacher who was willing to step down and not step down, but like step to teaching elementary music.
Brittany: When we think down, like grade levels. Not like, “you're taking a step back teaching the youngies.”
Amber: Exactly, yeah. So, if I had more experiences in elementary music that were of quality, I wonder how it would have shaped my experience as a beginning band student.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: And I also think going back to our point that we made earlier about elementary music being a feeder and also doing your time as an elementary music teacher, sometimes the misconception can also be that you are not talented enough (as a teacher) in this regard to teach a secondary ensembles.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: At least that's something that I've heard other people say, but it's not true.
Brittany: No, there is such a unique set of skills that you need to teach a beginner.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: And it's completely different than secondary. And I don't see that as taking a step down. You know, it's–it's just a different set of skills to have the patience and to guide young players to get from absolute squeaks and almost no sounds, or–or even learning them. LEARNING THEM. We’re going to learn the kids today. Teaching them how to use their singing voice.
Amber: Yeah. Seriously. So, I think in summation, we did talk a little bit about how to combat these misconceptions. I think for me, one way is through continuing professional development and educating ourselves and being willing to expand and open our minds to what elementary music or beginning music can look like and sound like. How do you think we can fight the good fight?
Brittany: I think it's the day in, day out. It's just keeping, you know, doing a great job. I see the–especially the high school musical students–and I had like I've had discussions with the vocal directors, I've had discussions with choreography people in like, “what do you want to see in five years, your kids being able to do?” And like for choreography, it's been an examples of performing a multi-step something movement-wise, where they can keep track of what they're doing a little bit quicker. And I'm like, you know, the amount of folk dances we did in this past year alone has definitely prepared them for things like that. So it's planting the seeds right now for them to see along the road, because I haven't, and we both haven't been in a place long enough to see those kinds of things grow. So I think the really big indicator will be how, and it's not always about what other people think of us, but I want to see what their skills look like down the line. But for right now it is just going in and doing good work with the kids.
Amber: So letting our work speak for itself, rather than going to the back alley and fighting.
Brittany: You're so good at summation.
Amber: Jimbo.
Brittany: Jimbo?
Amber: Yeah, he's uh he's being onboarded right now. We’ll meet him next week.
Brittany: Okay. I also use Jimmy too often, and it's, like it's not in reference to any sort of kid named Jimmy. I just like the name and just like throwing out like “Jimmy over here.”
Amber: Jimmy's mom.
Brittany: Hi, Jimmy's mom.
Amber: Oh my gosh. We have to stop. We have to.
Brittany: Well, kids, you're either talented or you're not.
Amber: Growth mindset, everybody?
Brittany: Yeah, growth mindset. If we can grow, the kids can grow, and if the kids can grow– They could probably grow like 20 times faster than us.
Amber: Honestly, and if you don't think you can grow, your kids are gonna latch onto that. Oh yeah. So, so what you say is important.
Brittany: So important.
Amber: But don't think about it too hard either. Don't go down that rabbit hole.
Brittany: Yeah, fix everything about your teaching right now. Oh my gosh.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Putting Research to Practice
Brittany: Anyway, we have to talk about a research article.
Amber: *Sad sounds.* No, I'm kidding. This is actually a fantastic research article.
Brittany: I love this part.
Amber: So, we found an awesome research article talking about student perceptions of hand signs.
Brittany: Why do we care what the kids think?
Amber: Oh, my gosh.
Brittany: I don't care what they think at all.
Amber: I care so much. No, I care a healthy amount.
Brittany: Enough to not let your confidence waver.
Amber: Yes, but it is important because if they feel like they have learned something or are taking something away from it, it can impact or inform our instruction, more so than we think.
Brittany: Right. We can perceive things all we want and we can get a good vibe in the classroom, but it's nice to have backed research, a peer-reviewed something that says, “this is what the kids are thinking about these things.”
Amber: Yeah, there's a research article coming out soon, fingers crossed, by someone. I won't say who, because I don't want to jinx it talking about their student perceptions between different educators who use Kodaly, Orff, and music learning theory. So I'm curious to see what that research shows. Yeah. So, talking about this research article, though, the title is student perceptions of hand signs, the author is Whitney Mayo.
Brittany: Thank you, Whitney.
Amber: And coming from the Update: Applications of Research and Music Education, year 2024.
Brittany: Here is the abstract. ASMR. Elementary music educators use a variety of strategies in the classroom instruction. The purpose of this case study was to explore student perceptions of Curwen (Glover) hand signs, a common instructional strategy in elementary basic classrooms. Second and third grade students reported various challenges, benefits and influential factors surrounding hand signed use. Results indicated that students enjoyed movement activities and benefited from the visual and physical reminders of singing tasks during instruction. They describe several challenges, including multitasking, required background knowledge and distraction. Influential factors included a learning curve, accuracy, placement, pattern length and complexity, and enjoyment. The results of this study suggests that hand signs should be considered one instructional strategy in a toolbox of multiple approaches, though after reading this, this was a great article because it was short and sweet and very concise. What would you say is your main takeaway after reading this.
Amber: My biggest takeaway was the idea of multiple modes of engagement.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: Using hand sides not as an assessment tool or a skill that needs to be learned in of itself, but rather as the author suggested, a tool in the tool box to engage. And I think of universal design for learning.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: So we're using some sort of contour and some sort of hand sign to engage students’ abstract thinking of pitch.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Because pitches are abstract. Put that on a T-shirt. Pitches be abstract.
Brittany: Yeah, we'll get away with that one.
Amber: I think so. Anyways, don’t wear it to school. But because, like, even as I was reading it, something that the author mentioned was although the placement of the hand sign or the hand sign itself was not always accurate, and did not always accurately resemble what the student was audiating or singing. So like, for example, they were using the “MI” hand sign when they were singing the SOL. The act of movement and engaging space helped them in internalize an audiate to a deeper level. And I think that's really powerful because I even reflected on when you told me about when you did different movement things with your students when you were doing creativity and improvisation.
Brittany: Can’t remember.
Amber: And you and maybe this was a different time. The students were like standing, they were like SOL-DO-MI, and they like moved their body with it, rather than just singing it back to you.
Brittany: Yes, there are some people who do whole-body solfege. I've only seen it done a few times. But just as another way to get students understanding, like this is a higher pitch, this is a lower pitch in the context of the patterns that you are doing. Yes.
Amber: What was your biggest takeaway?
Brittany: I agree in that it is a tool. I don't–I don't find myself assessing students on their ability to perform the hand signs themselves. And even though that's something we quote, unquote, “require” in our district, like, when we have students perform scales, we do have them perform scales with hand signs. The big thing that I'm also looking for, which I was so happy to hear in this article, was like, I'm looking for students doing contour and recognizing the shape of things because eventually that's going to apply to the contour of the music that they're singing. So they're kind of getting an idea of space and how that's going to look on the page. So for the eventual, like when they read music, those associations are helping them place, not only with their body, but also visually. But I’m never asking students to generalize patterns and be like, this pattern is bum bum bum, give it to me with the pitches and the hand signs.
Amber: Oh my God.
Brittany: Cause that's many skills into one. It's the generalization skill, and then you have to add the skill on top of it of accurately performing the hand sign. So I don't know if teachers are actually checking in on those hand signs as much. And it mentioned somewhere in the article about accuracy of the hand sign itself, like some students are approximating, but not necessarily performing the correct height with the correct hand sign every single time.
Amber: Right. Yeah, I think it's too much because–
Brittany: It's a lot.
Amber: We don't we separate skills very intentionally, so that we are not asking too much of a cognitive load on students.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Because if you're, if you were to take your example and you want them to generalize that skill, you want them to translate bum bum bum or whatever your singing.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Now you're assessing two different things. You're assessing the hand sign and you're also assessing their ability to generalize. While on top of assessing their ability to sing and do it in tune.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: It's too many things. And I don't know if the hand signs just for the sake of knowing the hand signs is the most useful thing.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: It's just like knowing the note names just for the sake of knowing the note names.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Eventually, you're gonna have students who are just really good at pressing buttons, and they're gonna remember that.
Brittany: I don't foresee my student going into a room within an adjudicator, sightsinging, and having that be a useful tool.
Amber: Sure.
Brittany: But someone might someone might out there and I guess I'm not educated enough on the topic as a whole.
Amber: And we–we don't use hand signs the same way that a lot of teachers use them either.
Brittany: Tell me more.
Amber: So we don't use hand signs every time we're doing tonal instruction.
Brittany: No, we don't. And I know I know speaking for both of us, hopefully. Rhythm skills, our students seem to grasp a lot easier than the tonal skills.
Amber: Sometimes.
Brittany: Sometimes like not everything, but I've noticed over the course of a few years, my students are weaker tonally. And I'm getting better at teaching the tonal side of the LSAs, but I've noticed tonally a little bit, a little bit weaker, if not, rhythm definitely feels easier. I'm not sure if those are two elements of the same spectrum.
Amber: Sure. And we, I think this is an aside from the research article, but something that a researcher should definitely look into and tint, wink, wink, you grad students, you we've talked about this before is students getting demonstrating weaker skills in tonal skill sets, because maybe well, we have the COVID babies right now. and parents are not singing at home. There's less music being done at home. And that affects a kid's ability to engage tonally.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: So I wonder if that's part of it, and that's like, like I said, in a total aside from this research article. But if I could, in discussion section of this research article, Whitney Mayo describes some benefits and then she describes some other influential factors that might help clarify some of the things that we are discussing. So I'm just going to read the headers because I don't want to get into the weeds on this. But some of the benefits to the hand signs that she noticed was movement. It was a visual and kinesthetic support. It also did nonverbal communication. Some of the influential factors, so maybe some challenges are difficulties with using hand signs, was there was a learning curve, so some students felt like they could do it and there was a lot of practice needed of just learning the hand sign. Balancing effort and benefit, so they weren't always beneficial to what the objective of the lesson was. And the importance of hand sign accuracy and position/positioning, and the role of pattern complexity, and student enjoyment of the hand signs. And when she says student enjoyment, some students really liked the challenge of the hand signs. But some frustrated by the challenge. So it's knowing that threshold.
Brittany: And some were so good at it that they no longer felt a need for it, which was also an interesting finding.
Amber: It was. So how are you gonna use the information from this research study in your room?
Brittany: I'm never using hand signs again.
Amber: I'm emailing everyone right now.
Brittany: No, I think I'm–I'm unchanged, in that I'm going to continue teaching it as a tool. I'm going to feel less bad about focusing on the accuracy of it and the–and being able to perform skills with it because it's just a piece. It helps some, it doesn't help others. But most of my teaching doesn't focus around the hand sign, it focuses on the tonal skills. So if it's a helpful thing in the tonal skill, they just need to know that it is something that exists.
Amber: Sure.
Brittany: For me. How about you?
Amber: I think for me using it as a tool, like you said, yeah, but also using it as that multiple modes of engagement. I have been hesitant–I don't wanna say afraid–but hesitant in the past of using hand signs or any sort of movement associated with melodic contour because, in the music learning theory world, you're attaching a simple to sound.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: And I don't wanna do that. But maybe that's a rule worth breaking if it's of benefit to students. So, it's something I would like to explore the school year and see what happens. So, I don't know, it gave me a little bit of permission to explore it for next year.
Brittany: Yeah. I do like too, using it for very simple assessments of like, “okay, students, we are going to sing a tonic pattern. Give me one pitch in a tonic pattern.” And they throw up a DO, MI or SOL. It's more specifically, I think I've done things like that in band. So, just hold it on it.
Amber: Yeah.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Reddit Query: What is a successful lesson?
Brittany: I don't know the Reddit question, because I didn't read it ahead of time.
Amber: Okay.
Brittany: I like to be surprised.
Amber: Can I read it to you?
Brittany: Oh, please.
Amber: I'll get you a fresh cup of milk.
Brittany: What's Reddit again?
Amber: Uh well, it is a very scary place, but reddit is a place where people go and post anonymous questions or engage in conversation around different communities in the community that we are pulling from is r/MusicEd.
Brittany: Nice.
Amber: And this is by user Nuki767.
Brittany: Thanks, Nuki.
Amber: Yes. So their post reads, the title is, “What does a successful lesson look like to you?” And here is their post text. They say, “Hello everyone. I'm new to the teaching world private voice and one thing I've been trying to figure out is how to feel as a teacher that a lesson is successful. There are so many different types of students and aspirations that the students are moving towards. On your end, do you feel that a “successful lesson,” in quotes, means you taught something new or is it just have fun with a student and give feedback on their practice? Or is it something else?”
Brittany: Well, I heard that in elementary music all we have fun all day. So I think I'm winning every single day, but that doesn't necessarily mean that students are learning, so how–this is really weird, not really weird. This is a hard question in that this is definitely in a private music setting.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Which I would indicate is a very different–it has a different set of standards for success, and as for someone who teaches some private lessons, especially right now in the summer, it looks very different for kid to kid because some kids, we are just trying to keep them playing and some kids are ready for some skill building and other things. It's–summer's a weird time. Are we taking this in the context of our classroom, you think?
Amber: I think so.
Brittany: They're posting from a private studio perspective, but I take this in our context.
Amber: Okay, I think so.
What’s a successful is that like to Amber?
Amber: Oh my gosh. I don't know. Fun.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: Well, I mean it is fun though. like yeah, like lessons that I have that are very engaging, I can tell because the students leave with some sort of intrigue and wonderment.
Brittany: WHIMSY.
Amber: When students are asking really good questions, I'm like, “oh, this is a good lesson.” And it's hard too, because there are so many different parts of our lesson where it might be that one activity was–is really good. And the other part is that sometimes that activity went really well with one class, but then the next one, you're like, “holy cow.”
Brittany: Right.
Amber: It did not work.
Brittany: And it's not a one-size-fits-all.
Amber: No, it's really not. So I think a successful lesson looks like one where you can visually and aurally tell that students are engaged, they might not have the skill down yet. They're still working on it. But also one where you can see that students have made progress from previous lessons as well.
Brittany: Yeah, I think I hardly base my lesson success on student ability alone in performing a certain scale. And obviously when you get to the point of assessment, you've been practicing a skill for a long time, but there are so many times when I'm like, just working on something where I'm like, “some of us got it, some of us didn't.” I know in three-weeks time, we’re not gonna worry about it because they're going to get it and they need time for the skill to be practiced and to rest on it too. I guess I have enough confidence because I've been doing this long enough to know that, like, a student doesn't need to demonstrate success necessarily in the first lesson to know that it's going to be successful later on.
Amber: Sure.
Brittany: I just need to know that we've put the time in and I know that because we put the time in, it's going to pay off later on.
Amber: This is like a bank.
Brittany: Little bit.
Amber: You're collecting interest.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Okay. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. It's hard, like, because what is and I have to think about this, what is success? And do you have to be successful in order to have a successful lesson? I feel like that's an oxymoron of a question, but.
Brittany: And also is it successful student-based-wise? Or is it successful teacher-wise? Because what you feel is a success, like, “I got to all of the kids, I got to this, I got to this,” isn't necessarily what the students might view as a success. And whether that matters or not, I don’t know.
Amber: I think it matters, but it can't matter too much.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: There's a lot of things that I don't feel like we can answer. I think sometimes it's like, you know when you know, or sometimes you have small winds that culminate into one thing. You definitely know when you didn't have a successful lesson.
Brittany: Right. There's so much in this field based on feel. And that's what I've been learning. I've been doing a little bit more investigation on class or management and that research. And someone put into words how I was feeling about, like, when you feel your class or management is in a good place because it's a combination of like the feel is created from a semblance of student engagement and seeing how excited they are versus how bored they're starting to get. Well, also engaging them in the Zone of Proximal Development in that it is challenging them enough, but it's not too hard to where it's too much. And in that you have feel. So you're kind of going between those things and you might not be identifying those things as, “oh, this is the Zone of Proximal Development” or, “oh, this is this,” but it's just feel. You just get a “teacher sense” to know going on.
Amber: You really do. Yeah. And I think also if there's joy in the classroom.
Brittany: Oh, yeah.
Amber: I feel that as some level of success or maybe there was something challenging that happened in the classroom. Like maybe two of my students really had a hard time problem solving or had a high level of conflict with each other. But were we able to work through that as, like, a community of students?
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: And were we able to come up with a plan in some ways?
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: Like that might not feel good or feel like a success.
Brittany: But not all our goals are musical in the music room. It's a lot of times music is the vehicle that we are teaching students how to be good people and how to interact with each other and how to be part of something.
Amber: Somebody I saw on TikTok recently she said, I don't teach music. I teach children music. And it it's a really take a minute to think about it because like you got reflect on that. And that's not what this episode is about. But it's–yeah.
Brittany: I wrote something because in a previous year I was really frustrated with something along the lines of management and getting kids to the right spot. And sometimes kids questioning like, why we're doing something.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: And I wrote down the three things that are my roles in the classroom, and the first role is always that I always keep people safe. My second role is to help students make good choices and in turn being good people. My third role is to teach music.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: The other things always come first. And I have found that I've had less frustration in the classroom because I am focusing on the first two things first, and the music last. But if you don't focus on those things, you'll never get to the music.
Amber: It's so true.
Brittany: Because you'll be more frustrated.
Amber: You will be very frustrated. Was it?
Brittany: While she's looking for that, I want to point out that your success is also going to change from when you're a first year teacher to when you're a fifth grade teacher, fifth grade, excuse me, fifth-year teacher to a veteran teacher to the end of your career, every lesson looks different and you in your first year, you're gonna be super successful when you make it through everything you planned for the first time. and that’s success. And my success right now is being able to make it through a class without crying.
Amber: Oh my God.
Brittany: I'm just kidding. That's definitely more a first-, second-year concern, cause we've all been there listeners.
Amber: Yes. And you'll be there even in your tenth year of teaching, because these kids change every decade, every semi-decade, every year, they're just different people.
Brittany: Also, putting in the work with those kids. You're gonna have kids who you struggle with and kindergarten first and they're your best fourth graders.
Amber: Oh yeah.
Brittany: And it's such a delight to see them grow into the people that you help shape them to be. It means something.
Amber: If I can, and this just came to mind as you were talking.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: I think also ensuring that you have a successful lesson is putting away bias you might have towards students.
Brittany: Heckin’ yeah.
Amber: And I don't mean like the typical bias that we think, like when it comes to personal identity. But I also think, “what other teachers say about these students?”
Brittany: The whispers down the hall “Well Jimmy–sorry, Jimmy–Jimmy likes to jump classroom into the classroom because no one can handle him.” Or “Jimmy always runs out of PE class, 10 minutes early.”
Amber: We have one student that has a very interesting reputation in our building where I have him in my classroom and he causes me zero problems.
Brittany: I've also never had a poor interaction with this student.
Amber: He is such a delight. and it could be the setting, it could be the time of day.
Brittany: Could be that he loves music. Many things.
Amber: But I think when you're thinking of what was successful and you're thinking of how can I have a successful lesson? Acknowledging those biases and letting them stay outside of your classroom, so that you can be as loving on those students as you can, because these kids need a lot of love.
Brittany: Do you mean letting them stay inside your classroom?
Amber: Uh no, I mean like metaphorically, like–
Brittany: OH, keeping the bias out of the classroom. I thought you meant, “get those kids out of your room,” and I was like, this is–very contradictory right now. Even putting in kids in the hallway.
Amber: We don't do it. We don't as much as we can.
Brittany: Kids need breaks, but the implication is that they'll always return.
Amber: Correct.
Brittany: Anyway.
Amber: And they know how to regulate if we're asking them to take a break.
Brittany: Or we teach them how to regulate because that's front of our jobs.
Amber: So, I wanted I was looking this up because it's from a TikTok, which, take that with a grain of salt, but it's Mrs. Phillip and fifth. She made these affirmations for SLAY classroom management.
Brittany: SLAYYYYYY.
Amber: Which, but I just thought these were really great. So one of them was, “my students are capable of meeting my high expectations.” Which they so are.
Brittany: We so love to complain about kids.
Amber: We do.
Brittany: Like not we, but we as a teacher community, and I hate that.
Amber: The royal we.
Brittany: I know, I just I mean, we can make jokes a little bit about students, but like kids are kids are kids.
Amber: Yes. They're learning, but also they're very good human beings, which takes me the next one. “I am a mirror of student behavior.” Like, it it is true. And the other one I really liked, “If I allow it today, I accept it tomorrow.”
Brittany: Right.
Amber: So, when you were thinking of maybe this lesson today wasn't successful, but you want to have a more successful lesson in the future, don't accept it. If a student is doing something that you don't think is acceptable behavior, don't allow it in your classroom. And have consistent consequences to those–
Brittany: To reinforce those things.
Amber: Exactly.
Brittany: There and there are sometimes in addition to that, where I will do something in my room and I will be teetering on that. Is this the right choice for today? And not make it, and sometimes that happens and then the next class they come back and they do the same thing and you're like, “Yep, okay. I now know that I have to move sooner rather than later on this student. And it's gonna be different for each kid.
Amber: And different on each day that you see that student.
Brittany: Oh, yes.
Amber: Which I'll share this last one is as we're talking about consequences, consequences are for improving behavior, not imposing power.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: So I think sometimes we forget that yes, we are the teacher, but we are not the proprietors of power and community in our classrooms.
Brittany: I think I got this from “Punished by Rewards,” if you haven't read that book, it's a great book. But I wanted to–I’m not sure if this is something I made, because I didn't cite it and most times I cite things when I steal them. So if this is from that book, I'm sorry, or if this is from somewhere else, I'm sorry. But–
Amber: You should apologize a little more time.
Brittany: I'm so sorry. This is something that I keep in my classroom management plan and I have a section on, like consequences and how we give feedback to students. And this is just a nice something that I hand to administrators if I need to to be like this is how I handle things in my room if you have questions. But in this section of natural consequences and restorative practices, it says, “natural consequences are those that do not need to be set in place ahead of time and allow students to repair the harm when an error is made. Natural consequences will be addressed when a mistake is made. The goal of natural consequences is always to educate never to demean, embarrass, or punish. So it's always to teach.
Amber: Yes. That's everything that we do. And I think when we get into the area of demeaning and demoralizing students, we get into some serious trouble.
Brittany: Well, not only like for students as students and people, but then also on the musical end there are some people who inflict certain consequences, like yelling at kids and demeaning students, and that is a really fast track to getting kids to not only hate you, but kids to hate music. And never want to participate in it.
Amber: Yes, because what you do will impact their opinion of music, period, no matter what. Whether it's for good or for bad. I have a feeling that this topic of classroom management is going to show up in the near future.
Brittany: I just like it, okay?
Amber: I know, it's so important. But I think that this has been an awesome episode. We finally figured out our mic situation.
Brittany: You can hear me louder now.
Amber: Yes, you can.
Brittany: I just a gentle little fairy. Whimsical. We actually just gonna vocalize for the next two minutes.
Amber and Brittany: *vocalizes fairy sounds*
[OUTRO MUSIC]
Amber: Anyways, that's all for today on Patterns and practice.” You like what you heard? Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us on Facebook and Instagram @patternsandpracticepod, or our website, patternsandpracticepod.com. And if you made it far, Brittany gets to share a secret this week.
Brittany: This is so useless, but when I was in fourth or third grade, you had to choose your instrument, and I chose I–I made three choices and they were all dumb. And the first one was percussion because I liked it. That's the best reason. Okay, the second one was flute because my best friend at the time played flute and I knew that she had already been pitched for flute. The third reason with the third one that I chose was trumpet because the boy that I really liked in third grade also got picked for Trumpet. Needless to say, I have been spared because I got the instrument that I wanted for me and not because of anyone else. And what a great life lesson. But also it could easily been because of my friend and it could have easily been because of the boy I liked. Which set forth some different things when I was thinking about when I started teaching and like, how do I let so initially when I started do a um instrument fittings, I made kids come in by themselves. and I made them because I didn't want their friends to influence it. I didn't want all of that. Now we do it in groups of six because efficiency and other reasons, but I think we're better at managing, like, “this is, this a you thing? Is this a parent thing? Is this your friend thing? This is your boyfriend thing?” You're not allowed to be in love. You're not in fourth grade. I tell students as soon as they start saying something, I'm like, nope, I don't wanna know, I don't wanna know. Keep me out of it.
Amber: That's Brittany’s secret. Well, anyway, this has been better to practice. Have a great day. Make good choices.
Brittany: PEACE OUT.