Ep. 3 - You Gonna Learn Today
On today's episode it's all about classroom management! What better way to get started for the school year than refresh or catch something new to try out.
In today’s episode, Amber and Brittany discuss everything they can muster about classroom management in a (roughly) hour-long episode. This episode features some discussion about the Four C’s of Classroom Management (as defined by Jill Reese, 2007): consistency, commendation, communication, and content.
These two educators then move on to a highly anticipated (for them) literature review by Jacob Langstaff titled: Classroom Management in K–12 Classroom Music: A Review of the Literature.
They wrap things up with a spicy Reddit story where one music educator wonders if they are overreacting to an email they received from their administrator.
If you prefer to read or follow along, you can access our transcription of the episode below:
Start of Transcription
Brittany: Repeat exactly what you just said.
Amber: Teacher spice is very mild.
Brittany: What do you mean "teacher spice?"
Amber: So, like, I can't swear. That's very mild. I can't be upset about things. That's very mild. I'm not allowed to like spice, but I'm allowed to be spicy, if that makes sense.
Brittany: Yes, it is not literature spice.
Amber: Yes. Add a little spice.
Brittany: Well, anyway, here's our episode.
[INTRO MUSIC]
Amber: Hi there, I'm Amber.
Brittany: I’m Britt!
Amber: And welcome to Patterns and Practice, a podcast where we share a candid snapshot of our experience as music educators.
Brittany: And today? Spice. We will dive into a variety of topics, research, and even Reddit in hopes to expand community, knowledge, and joy in our profession.
Amber: You said spice and I was like, PowerPuff Girls. Sugar.
TOGETHER: Spice! And everything nice.
Brittany: Mojo Jojo.
Amber: I'm the rowdy rough boy.
Brittany: Oh, I don't know anymore. I just like the lobster club person, too.
Amber: Him!
Brittany: Is that really what he's called?
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: Wow.
Amber: They're hot take, first non-binary, queer person.
Brittany: Yes!!
Amber: Anywho.
Brittany: Anywho, hooty hahs.
Amber: So what are we talking about today?
Brittany: Well, if I was reading our outline for today, I would say that we're talking about classroom management.
Amber: Whoa!
Brittany: Yay!
Amber: Your name's Jared, and you did learn how to read.
Brittany: Oh, my gosh. Thank goodness, because the science of learning stuff, reading stuff is over my head. But I teach music, so.
Amber: Yeah, so we don't teach reading.
Brittany: We don't, and a lot of districts are currently like turning everything over to do that, at least in New York State and ours is a part of that. So while everybody's learning how to do a different curriculum, we are singing and having a good time.
Amber: Flashback to last week's episode.
Brittany: Right, because we only have fun in music and nothing else.
Amber: Yes. We're going to talk about classroom management, and I'm using the template from Jill Reese's article about classroom management. She called it the Four C’s of classroom management. And so the Four Cs consist of commendation, communication, consistency, and content.
So I'm using that as an inspirational template for us. And we kind of talk through each of those four points. So commendation. Have you ever heard that word before today?
Brittany: No, because I'm looking at it and also Googling it while we're talking about it.
Amber: I know.
I was like, wait a minute. So essentially the essence of commendation is how we talk to students and provide praise. So…
Brittany: Okay.
Amber: Giving them commentary or giving them feedback and mostly it seemed that the article focused on praise and how it can be an effective tool for classroom management.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: So, thoughts on that so far?
Brittany: Well, also, I, in a separate thought on that, but also thought on this article as a whole, this article as a whole was written early 2000s…?
Amber: 2007, I believe.
Brittany: Okay, so like, in that space, so this is like almost 20 years ago where we're still having these conversations of what do we say to children? And pairing that with what I learned recently from Punished by Rewards again, that book that I keep bringing back, I think there is such a thing as toxic positivity, especially when giving feedback to students and being like, good, good, good, good. Yeah. Awesome.
Amber: What's good? What was good about what I just did?
Brittany: Exactly. And what I've been doing and trying to switch over more what–has been to comment on what students are doing and making adjustments and feedback based on effort and the things that they're doing and trying to get them to reflect on what they're doing. So they're having an understanding of their practice and how things come together as opposed to just giving empty praise.
Amber: But I like praise.
I like stickers.
Brittany: We grew–is that an us thing, right?
It's the participation trophy era. Like, is that an us thing where we constantly felt like we needed those things or we're just given those things?
Amber: Yeah. I was being facetious. I don't actually like. I mean, I love stickers. As a stationary girlie.
Brittany: Amber was just informing me that she spent the morning at the art store, which is not far from us, and she...
Amber: I got new pens, guys.
Brittany: Talk about a pen junkie.
Amber: I really am. I got a problem. That will be solved someday. But anyways, back to commendation. Yeah, I think there's a lot there, especially in the what kind of language do we use in talking about effort.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: Because we also talked about this on our first episode. What makes somebody a musician and what doesn't?
And we are of the mindset that everybody is a musician. And it also comes back to what language we're using with students. I've started using a lot of, “I wonder, I notice” language.
Brittany: Hello Orff training.
Amber: I actually got that from Heather Kirby.
Brittany: No way.
Amber: During my GIML PDLC.
Brittany: Okay.
Amber: So I think it's just, it's a–I don't know what style of teaching it is necessarily or where that language comes from, but is something that Heather Kirby mentioned during our practical sessions.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: And I really appreciate it, because I can go to a student and say, oh, I notice Jimmy coming back to Jimmy.
Brittany: Yes! Jim.
Amber: Is using his mallets and pinching them and wrapping his hands.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Complimenting Jimmy. I'm not saying, "Oh, good job, Jimmy, like this. And it also comes back to, which students have this right and which students have this wrong?
Brittany: Right.
Amber: So if a student says, well, I think it's this.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Like, does anybody agree with Jimmy? Do you disagree with Jimmy? Why do you disagree with Jimmy? Yes. So it comes into that engaging, and that is something I got from Jill Reese.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: So language, I think plays a bigger part into this big picture than sometimes we think.
Brittany: Yeah, and it leads to different pathways, too, because just when you are saying about the mallet, I remembered a story that we did. I was in a timpani class and we dared somebody to use the wrong grip in timpani class and ask our professor, which was so daring. And like, why would we do that? Because we so respect this wonderful woman.
But then she just went, ‘well, I mean, it could happen. Well, let's see what happens when you do.’ And, like, that opened up a whole other wheelhouse of, like, things.
For college students. So, like, even with elementary school students, it just opens more doors than it is to be like, "Good, door slam. That's all we're talking about.
Amber: Or bad.
Brittany: Or bad! And like, that's the only thing, like, that you can't do.
Amber: So we talk a lot about language, but what about the non-verbal language that we used in our classrooms? How does that help your classroom management?
Brittany: What's your teacher's like, glare like, Amber?
Amber: Pause for 15 seconds for dramatic pause, our dear audio listeners, so you can feel my stare.
Brittany: I'm editing it out because it makes me uncomfortable.
Amber: I'm also smiling the whole time, which is either more threatening or not. I feel like there's a lot of power in nonverbal communication. And our students need to be taught what nonverbal communication looks like, because that is such an interpersonal communication skill.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: That sometimes they are lacking because of so many variables, one of them being screen time.
Another being amount of socialization that they've either had or have not had.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: So I use a lot of, I don't want to say American sign language, but I use a lot of hand gestures in my classroom.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: So if somebody wants to go to the bathroom, they shake their hand. If they have a need to go to the nurse or something, there's different cues for those things.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: I'm also doing non-verbal reminders with our schedule so that students can see, okay, if we're on red, we're not leaving the classroom right now. But if we're on white, you can ask to leave the classroom.
Brittany: Right. Can you talk more about these tasks and what they look like on your board? Because I found this really interesting when you told me about it. Can you describe that system one more time?
Amber: Sure. So depending on the number of activities I have with students, I will put that number of activities just in a box on my board, and their velcro to my whiteboard next to the screen.
One. two, three, four, five. Yep, for that.
Brittany: And a vertical layout.
And that aligns with what you're doing on the board.
Amber: Correct.
Brittany: Okay.
Amber: And so I, next to it, I will either have a magnet that points and has an arrow to which one we're on. So if we're on one, students know, okay, it's in red. I can't go, I have to wait.
And that's typically what I'm doing my learning sequence activity.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: Because I really need my kids to be in there.
And we just got into the classroom.
Brittany: Right,
Amber: Like, chill.
Brittany: Enters classroom. Can you please use the bathroom? No. Can I use the bathroom?
I have to go. She didn't. I love saying, “what did your teacher tell you?” “My teacher told me that I didn't need to go to the nurse.” “Oh, I'm gonna have to agree.” Anyway.
Amber: I concur.
The two is typically also in red because we're transitioning into our hello song and sharing. And then we have a three, I typically have a three in white, because that's typically something that I can let go. I'm not doing an assessment or it's just kind of an enrichment type thing.
And then normally when I get to my last activity or last two activities, I go back to red because we're going to get ready for a really big transition, back into the classroom.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: So students are watching this, and I have a student assistant who is taking care of that for me so that I don't have to worry about it.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: And that's another part of classroom management too, is giving students the autonomy to do jobs in the classroom.
Brittany: Yeah.
And you have a really good, I know we're going to talk about, I don't know if we're going to talk about jobs.
Amber: I don't know.
Brittany: I think what that's a really good place to go in because you are really creative doing jobs.
Amber: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Brittany: There were so many things I watched during your jobs at the beginning of the school year and I'm like, “okay, in January, we're implementing this.”
Amber: I really like them. I strive to give students more autonomy and I strive to do less work.
Brittany: Right, in both of those things, when you are at the point where you can let enough control go, 'cause I feel like as a new teacher, for me, I needed more control.
I needed more hands on things. And as I'm getting older, I'm finding the ways that I can do less and giving students the responsibility to do those things.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Without you having to worry about it. But do you feel like you are answering less questions because of that and freeing up space in your brain to be like, ‘nope, bathroom, not right now?’ Or ‘no, we're not doing this right now’ because that is in place.
Amber: It's hard to say because I don't know what it looks like without those systems.
Brittany: Fair.
Amber: But also I do have some classes that are more needy than others.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: So.
Brittany: So they're going to ask anyway.
Amber: It depends on the class.
Mm. But I will say none of it would work if I didn't have strong classroom management.
Brittany: Fair.
So, jumping back to nonverbals.
Amber: Yes, please.
Brittany: I, when I was in one of my, there was a school that I worked at that had four years of new teacher meetings instead of just one. And one of the years that I was in there, we did Teach 2.0. Have you ever heard of that book? It's one of those like, it's a lot of information on teaching techniques.
Amber: Okay.
Brittany: So like where a lot of books talk about theory and like how you do things. It's a nice book because it actually gives you like, this is a list of techniques that you can use.
Amber: Okay.
Brittany: And one of the techniques is talking about the appropriate use of nonverbals. So like when you are doing expectations and setting up expectations with the kids, sometimes you have a visual to go with that expectation. Like, I have my quiet signal one.
Amber: Oh, yeah. Okay.
Brittany: And for my quiet signal one, it's stop, look, listen, and it's literally a stop sign, eyes, and then an ear to be like, this is the expectation when we are doing this. So over time, you practice doing the expectation with the kids and with the visual, and then eventually all you have to do is just pick up the visual.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: And it's like, ‘oh, this.’ Or when we are working on a classroom activity something and I know students are struggling with a specific rule, all I'm doing is walking and pointing to the rule. Taking a moment for them to like recognize what that means, and then coming back to the activity.
Amber: Yes! I'm gonna come back to this too, and this is something that we learned from Kim Kane, and I think it's going to transition us nicely from the language we use to consistency, because I'm hearing a lot of consistency in what you're describing. So, something that we heard from Kim Kane. She's a wonderful teacher here in New York, is asking students, do you know what you're supposed to be doing right now?
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: Do you know what the expectation is? And asking it in the least passive-aggressive way that you can? Because it's a genuine question. And it was such a phenomenal thing for me to implement in my classroom because I would have students who are just easily distractible or really just want to have fun with their friends. And that's okay.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: But when I look at them and I say, “Jimmy, do you know what you're supposed to do right now? Do you know where you're supposed to go?” And they tell me, “no.” It's not necessarily because I'm a bad teacher. It could have been so many things. It could have been they weren't paying attention. It could have been that they were distracted by a classmate.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Or maybe I didn't explain something clearly enough or they just need to hear it again.
Brittany: And sometimes teachers will interpret that as defiance to say, no, I don't know what's going on. But if you're asking them, “Jimmy, do you know what's going on?”
Amber: Very different tone.
Brittany: Versus: “Jimmy, do you know what's going on right now?” “Oh, you don't. Okay.
Amber: Here's what's happening.
Brittany: It seems it not only saves you frustration, but it also saves you time because then you can just move on. No, you don't.
I let kids say, “I don't know” in my room all the time.
Amber: Sometimes I don't know.
Brittany: 'Cause sometimes you don't know, and it saves me so much time to be like, "Oh, you actually don't know. You can tell the kids eventually over time, like, what kids are saying “I don't know” to get out of something versus “I don't know,” because they really don't know."
Amber: And that comes with experience.
Brittany: Right. It comes back to our first episode.
Amber: Leaving your bias at the door.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: Letting your ego go a little bit. But back to this consistency because we're using consistent communication in our classrooms. So that students are catching our drift from day one.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: So tell me, what are some consistent things that you do or what would your classroom look like if you didn't have consistency?
Brittany: I don't even know, 'cause I can't function. I can't function without the practice. And when I was setting on my classroom for the beginning of the year and setting up my first month of lessons, I used to be like, ‘okay, I'm going to do the first lesson and then we're starting content right away.’
And the last two years, I've been really focused on, we might do some music things, but the first month is practicing routines because if you do not practice routines, and that is coming to the door, that is saying, “we are going to do this when we enter. This is what we're doing.” Giving students feedback on how they do it, practicing it again if they need to.
And doing that as many times as you need to so that they can function on their own at the beginning. And that's just the beginning of class. What would you say?
Amber: I was thinking in my brain where thinking happens.
Brittany: I think…
Amber: I was thinking of the word mise en place, which sounds insane, right?
Brittany: I don't speak French.
Amber: Okay.
Brittany: Is it French?
Amber: It is French. Yes, but it comes from French, culinary skills. So mise en place means everything in its place.
And the way I think about that is if I had a class where things were not mise en place, things were not in its place.
Brittany: Okay.
Amber: Things in its place, not being cooking ingredients, but being rules, expectations, procedures, routines.
Brittany: Okay.
Amber: I would be in my metaphorical kitchen of my classroom, in the middle of cooking, cooking, being teaching.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: Grabbing the ingredients as I need, while my stuff is overcooking, overheating. I'm burning the chicken.
Brittany: Got it.
Amber: I'm messing up all of my green beans.
Brittany: The cat's out the window.
Amber: You know what?
If we didn't have a screen on that window, he would be out. So I think of the consistency of my, in my classroom as mise en place, or being proactive or having everything in his place so that I can actually do my job of teaching.
Brittany: Right. And it's a before thought. There's the classroom management that comes before, and then there's the classroom management that comes during.
Amber: Tell me about before.
I thought I'd just have to show up and do my job.
Brittany: The before is all of the things in place before you do it. It's just exactly what you said. But it's not just–it's physical materials. Yes. But also all of the things you plan to do with your students. You need to have a set of routines. You need to have a set of procedures for everything that you're going to ever use.
Amber: Okay. And so, let's walk through this 'cause I'm picturing a new teacher who's like, ‘well, I'm going to have kids come in. They're going to sit down. I'm going to do my lesson.’
That would be three routines. Is that an accurate summation of how many routines that just happened?
Brittany: No.
Amber: You don't–I’ll say it’s about like seven.
Brittany: But there's so many steps inside of each of those things, and also based on your space, based on your preferences.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: And you are allowed to, you give so much up in teaching for students, but like, you're allowed to have preference of, ‘my student is going to enter in this way. So long as it is reasonable and age appropriate.’
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Because you need things to function in a way that's going to work for you because you are the one leading the circus of 40 children in your room or however many that are coming in and–and doing things.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: So there is some choice in that.
Amber: So can you, in terms of consistency, we have been in band for two months.
Brittany: Okay.
Amber: I'm walking in on a Tuesday for band practice at 8.20 in the morning.
Brittany: Band rehearsal. Okay.
Amber: Whatever.
Brittany: Yep.
Amber: What am I doing as a student?
Brittany: So my students know that they can check the board at the front of the room. Okay because I always have a board in there because usually I'm running around and doing things. Sure. And so when I set up procedures, I make sure I set that up so that they can handle things independently without my help.
Amber: Okay.
Brittany: Or who they can ask, and know who to ask for help. Anyway, they check the board. They come in.
Amber: Okay. So I checked the board. I'm walking into the space.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: Instrument in hand?
Brittany: Instrument will be on hand for small instruments, large instruments have to go and grab them from the small instrument room that is down the hallway.
Amber: Okay. So I got my flute.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: I'm coming into the band practice space.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: Band rehearsal space.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: What's next?
Brittany: You find a bench.
Amber: Okay. Do I get to stand? Sit, lay? What do I get to do at the bench?
Brittany: I go to the bench. and you drop off your stuff that
Amber: Do–
Brittany: Your coat, your backpack, and then you grab your flute and–
Amber: In the case or san's case?
Brittany: Stays in case.
Amber: See, these are questions Brittany’s probably like, wanting to flick my forehead right now, but these are things that students do.
Brittany: And this is exactly how I am explaining it to them when we do this. But this is not even like this is not the first rehearsal. This is the, you know, this is two months in. We don't even touch instruments for the first few band rehearsals, so we can get through all of these extra things.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: And practice doing these things without instruments and then practice asking questions and then doing it on their own with feedback. And then adding the instruments.
Amber: Yes. And then you can also add other students to hold them accountable.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: That's a huge thing.
Brittany: Which is all about the extra jobs and things.
Amber: Yes. Sorry to make you do that, but.
Brittany: No, but that's that's it.
Amber: It is.
Brittany: That is how you have to think of it. You have to think of every possible thing that a student will do. And while it might drive you crazy, it's also going to not drive you crazy because you have already thought through it.
Amber: The amount of times you came to me this past school year and said, I am so thankful that past me set up this system.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: Because it really was, you will have crazy days in March and April. It's just you're in the thick of it.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: And if you don't have a consistent classroom management procedure or routines, it's going to be abysmal.
Brittany: Right. But you also have the opportunity to fix it.
Amber: You do.
Brittany: You can fix it the next week. You can fix it whenever.
And as you do it more, you're going to figure out, ‘okay, I need to tell my students this at this point in the year.’ ‘I need to do that.’ But for sake of consistency, be consistent. But also communicate?
Amber: Communicate. Who am I communicating to?
Brittany: Heck if I know.
Amber: Myself, and I. So, you'd be surprised. communication doesn't only happen when things go wrong in your classroom.
Brittany: Really? 'Cause I only communicate with kids' parents if I absolutely have to.
Amber: Fair.
Brittany: That's a lie.
Amber: I know.
But it's calling parents and emailing parents can be really scary. Same as reaching out to administrators or to other teachers that you are working with. It's just something that you have to do, though.
You have to put on your teacher hat and be brave.
Brittany: Well, how does that affect your classroom management?
Amber: So, if I tell a student that I am going to tell their parent, that or their caregiver, that they did something amazing in class today?
And I don't do that, I think that is a really big wrong that needs to be righted.
Brittany: That's very villainous.
Amber: Yes, I do. Can I tell a quick story? It is relevant.
Brittany: No.
Amber: Okay, fine.
Brittany: No, please do, 'cause I tell so many stories and don't ask.
Amber: Okay. So, at my first job, and I know we've talked about rewards as punishment as a few times, but I used to do a secret student at my first job. And if that secret student passed the mission, so to speak, they would get to roll a dice that I made or a dice that I made. And each of those d corresponded with a specific prize. I didn't do physical prizes, but some of them were like a positive letter home or a positive phone call home or something. This kid rolled a six. A six was, you could pick any of the other options.
So it was like, "Woo, Nat 20. Yeah. So he's like–”
Brittany:
Are we on a bus?
Amber: I know. He's like, can you call my mom and tell her how great I did today?
And I'm like, yes, I absolutely can do that. What happened? I'm gonna break your heart right now.
Brittany: Amber.
Amber: I called, and I was like, I just want to tell you your son did amazing in music today. They did this, this, and this, they were super positive.
They worked really hard, they tried their best, and they were like, "Okay, thank you."
Brittany: Oh, I thought you were gonna be like, "I forgot to call them." like, oh.
Amber: No.
Brittany: Sometimes parents will break your heart in that way.
Amber: Yes, but sometimes parents are very awesome.
Brittany: Absolutely. More often than not.
Amber: Because on the flip side, I had a student this year who was in tears that I was going to call their dad.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: Tears. And this is a kid who doesn't cry.
Brittany: I know who you're talking about.
Amber: I know you do. Strong kid. But they were in tears. They were like, please don't call me dad. Please don't call my dad. Please, please, I'll do anything. I will do a fix-it ticket. I'm like, I, for one, I don't do fix it tickets. I just don't.
I don't find them meaningful. And I told them, I was like, “Insert-student-name, I have to call your dad, because if I don't, it's gonna cause problems.
I've given you so many chances to fix this on your own that you're communicating to me right now.” It's not that he's a bad student.
Brittany: No.
Amber: His actions have communicated to me. Okay, I need to step in and get some help from parents. And that's really what that should be.
Parents are like coaches with you in this thing. They are your co-teachers, not co-teachers, but you get what I'm saying.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: So I had to follow through. I had to call dad and dad was amazing. He was like, “you do exactly what you need to do. Teachers have one of the hardest jobs, do this, do this, let me know, call me if you need something.” And I was like, I should have done that two months ago.
Brittany: Right.
And it's hard when you are a special teacher because you're not seeing them every single day. Yes. So sometimes when you let something go for a week or even two weeks, it feels like, you know, the parent is like, “well, why didn't you tell me weeks ago?”
And it's like, it might be weeks, but technically I only saw it.
Amber: It's only been a couple days.
Brittany: It's been like, a few hours in our time.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: So it's–it's really challenging to find the balance of when do I need to jump and when do I need to give, take a second to see if they can correct it themselves.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: But something that I really like that you said was like, this is my job now to ensure that we're doing the right thing. Yes. And the right thing is me stepping into–to do that.
And sometimes that's my responsibility as a teacher. And that's tough because you don't want to get anybody in trouble. And nobody likes that.
Amber: No, and I don't want to be yelled at either.
Brittany: But that's that's part of it.
Amber: And it also communicates to the other students that you will follow through. Yes. And if you are meek for lack of a better word, students are going to latch onto it. And some students will take advantage.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: And some students will leave your classroom with a sour taste because you are not enforcing procedures and expectations on everyone equally.
Brittany: My husband loves to say from his first job teaching that from his principal, classroom management is promises made to children.
Amber: Ooh.
Brittany: I know. And if you are making this promise promise that this is the expectation and this is the follow through, and then you're not following through with the consequence or whatever it should be happening in response to a certain action. Doing that or lack of is just as bad as letting it go.
Amber: Yeah. So we've talked a lot about parent communication, and that honestly could be its own episode to talk about.
Brittany: Right, because we have administrators and teachers on here and it's like.
Amber: I know. Well I don't find those as scary. I would say everybody's administrators and teachers. And by teachers, I mean people that are picking up your students at the end of class or bringing them to you. It's gonna vary so much by school to school and what is okay to do and when you should call down to the office.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Like, when is this, when is it to the point where a student needs to be removed from this learning space? And they either need to be offered a break or they need some sort of alternate plan put in place that needs to be supported by administrators.
Brittany: Right. What would you say is your brief plan for, when do you call the office? When is it no longer–because a lot of new teachers will handle, try to handle things on their own, and sometimes too much.
Amber: Yes. And I totally get that because even, even as a slightly seasoned teacher, I have a couple years, I still get scared calling down to the office because I don't want to look meek or weak or like I can't handle my classroom. Yes. But there are some students who respond very strongly to calling down to the office that tighten up right away when you say, I'm going to be calling the principal right now.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: And they will be coming down here. Or it's one of our counselors and they are amazing.
Brittany: They are amazing.
Amber: I can't say I can define like what my breaking point is. I would say, like during my first year of teaching and I reflect on this a lot. I had a fifth grade teacher who told me, if they are stopping your other students from being able to learn.
Brittany: Yep.
Amber: They need to be removed.
Brittany: Yep.
Amber: And I agreed to that to an extent. But also, I would say, if they are being unsafe.
Amber: Yes, I find more and more we're running into safety issues in that we need to put out those fires before we can even think about learning.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: So what about you? When do you call the office?
Brittany: For literally those exact things. It is when you are, when the student is to a point where they are being in danger to themselves or others. And when I can no longer make it more than a minute, or even 30 seconds without having to stop to intervene with that student in some way. Because sometimes it's a matter of they constantly need your attention.
And there's a lot of ways you can positively direct that. You can give them a job to do. You can ask them to be in a certain space that is a special space for them. There's so many things that we do, but if I cannot even look at any of the other students and make it through full sentences or, or whatever, that is the point where I need either someone to step in to help give a break for the student or I need support. And I'm careful when I'm going to the phone. Sometimes I will have some like videos and things on hand just so I can play a quick something while I am discreetly walking over to the phone saying, this is a very low level intervention, but I need someone’s support whether to just step into the classroom and see what's going on or to remove that student.
Because I don't want to get into that. Like, “you're going to the office because you did this” because the kid's not going to make it to the office. They might.
They might. It depends on the student. I'm thinking of a particular first grader in mind right now, where it's like, if I could say go to the office, there's no way they're going there.
Amber: Jimmy.
Brittany: Oh, Jimmy. But anyway, yeah, it's, you, it will vary from student to student, but if you are getting to a point where you cannot do it, and then it's happening over and over and over again, then my next steps are, I need to talk to the teacher to see if this is happening in the classroom.
I need to talk to the other specials teachers to see if that's happening in their rooms. And then I need to approach the administrator or whoever to start the RTI process or what am I thinking of?
Amber: MTSS.
Brittany: MTSS. Yeah, it used to be RTI and our building, and now it's MTSS. To start the MTSS system so, that way, the student is getting what they need in order to be successful, because right now they can't be successful.
Amber: So if I am thinking of these three people, people being groups of people.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: My first go-to person is the classroom teacher.
Brittany: 100%.
Amber: My second is going to be the parent or the caregiver. And then my last person is probably going to be an administrator. Administrators are there for me, on an emergency basis or if something has been consistent enough and I've written referrals or emailed, like, this is really becoming a problem or a challenge in my classroom that I need extra support on and so does this student.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: They're my last line of defense most of the time. Would you agree or disagree?
Brittany: No, that is exactly who I would address. Unless the parent is so close by that I'm contacting them on a regular basis for some other reason.
Amber: Sure.
Brittany: You know, like, there are some parents that you have for years and you're just kind of like, hey, I've had this kid for a while.
This is what's going on. Especially in those first two weeks of school. And I might tell the teacher like, ‘hey, this is what's going on. This is normal for the student. You haven't had this kid before, but I'm telling you that this is normal.’ That's the only instance where I might go to parent first. But yeah, let's talk about that last “C.” Content.
Amber: Yes. So, so far, yeah, we've talked about commendation. We've talked about communication, and we've talked about consistency. The last one we have is content. And if I didn't say it at the top of the episode, I just want this to be clear, the things that we are discussing underneath each of these bullets is not necessarily from Jill's article.
Brittany: Oh, yes.
Amber: They're just headings that we are using as touchstones for our dialogue. So, the last one is content, and we've talked quite a bit about content, but I want to hear what you want to say about content. And why does that matter in your classroom management because aren't those separate ideas?
Brittany: They are and they aren't. It's one of those things that you don't typically think about with classroom management, and it wasn't until I saw a Reddit post where I was just like, oh, yeah, you do have to worry about what you're teaching. Because if you're–
Amber: What? That is news to me.
Brittany: Because there are some kids who get so bored so easily.
Amber: Yes. Well, what about the kids who get really frustrated and they're like, I don't get it.
Brittany: You open the window and you say–
Amber: Throw them out the window. The window. You throw them–
Brittany: I like to say that I'm on a first floor building, so when I say that, it is not like, I'm tossing him from a second floor.
Amber: We're also not tossing kids out the window.
Brittany: This is a message to my district. Please don't fire me. But when we are talking about content, we want to make sure that we are moving things along. And having that teacher sense on to know, ‘okay, am I challenging them enough is this too much?
Am I giving them something that's engaging? Or is this starting to lag?’ And it's so frustrating because different activities will take different amount of times for each group of students.
Amber: Mm hmm. So much so. Like, I'm thinking of all of my second grade classes that I had last year and I would say, I normally plan about four to five activities for second grade every single time.
I would say two of the five were super success. But guess what? None of them shared the same two.
Brittany: No! And not in the same activity. Yeah.
Amber: I was–it drove me crazy because I had a class. They were a wild class. And it's not their fault.
But we did Alabama Gal. They nailed it. I had another class. Did Alabama Gal. Nah, it was okay. But we got through it.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: But they could also sing a partner song.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Where the other class couldn't.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: And so it's like…
Brittany: So how do you know when to move on?
And when to stick with things? Because we also had this discussion. We had the lovely Jill Reese come in and teach a demonstration.
And she, when she was doing LSA's–no, she was doing a classroom activity.
Amber: With my fourth graders.
Brittany: With her fourth graders just because we were doing a PD day inside our building with all the music teachers, but then she's like, "Let me show you guys what I'm talking about."
Amber: It was so cool.
Brittany: It was amazing, but also, she stuck on something, not stuck in a bad way, but she stayed on an activity so much longer than I would have. But the kids were with her.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: I'm so quick with iPad kids, like gotta move fast. Gotta go, gotta go, gotta go. We have to go quickly through all of these things. Quick directions, Quick.
Amber: Right.
Brittany: And then she was like, nope, we can stay on this. And I was like, mystified.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: Anyway, I took that story from you, but..
Amber: No, you didn't. I mean, it's our story. We were both there. I don't know if you can answer when to move on. And that's a really frustrating answer for new teachers, but it is something that you are going to get a sense and feel for. And we're going to talk about that a little bit in our research article.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: So, but I agree with you. Stuff has to be engaging and challenging enough. It can't be too challenging.
And it comes all back to that zone of proximal development.
Brittany: Age appropriate, brain appropriate. Something that's relevant. All of that good stuff.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Amber: So let's talk about that research article.
Brittany: I live for this research article.
Amber: It is so good.
Brittany: And it's technically not a research article.
Amber: Correct.
Brittany: It's technically a literature.
Amber: What is a literature review?
Brittany: A literature review is a culmination and accumulation of a ton of research articles on a particular topic.
Amber: So it's like a BogGo. Buy one, get one.
Brittany: I don't understand.
Amber: Okay, I buy one research article. I buy this research article. I get 22 for free.
Brittany: Oh, yeah. When I'm like, buy it when, get one, I'm like, get one. No, you get, like, 40.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: There is–there's so many. And when you're writing one of these bad boys for grad school or otherwise, you can't just have 10 sources. You need to have like 50 sources.
Amber: What?
Brittany: I wrote a literature review and I was so sad when they were just like, ‘yeah, we need more sources.
And I'm like, I know, there's no more literature on this topic, but okay.’
Amber: I know. And you're like, this person said maybe a sentence that's kind of related.
Brittany: Yeah. There's so much about this.
Amber: There is. So can you read the title for us?
Brittany: I don't see the title. That's it?
Amber: That's it.
Brittany: This is “Classroom Management in K-12 Classroom Music, a Review of the Literature.” Who's the author?
Amber: Jacob Langstaff.
Brittany: I am in love with you, Jacob Langstaff. Just kidding, I have a husband and a cat.
Amber: But we'll send you a sticker or a postcard.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: Cause this was great.
Brittany: This was so good.
Amber: This was posted in Update: Applications of Research and Music Education from 2024.
Brittany: So fresh.
Amber: Super fresh. We've only had fresh ones on this show.
Brittany: That's right.
Amber: But I did notice. I put a big question mark in this as I was reading this article. There is something cited in here from like 1903.
Brittany: Oh, I know. Because–but like, the mentionings of it, it's so important to me. I know. It came from.
Amber: It's so funny.
Brittany: But it is–I noticed one from the '70s, and I was just like, yes, we want to mostly include things that are relevant, but sometimes talking about things of the past can help us identify how far we've come in those senses. So I think it was very well thought out use of that. But holy crow, people were talking about class management in the 1903’s?
I don't want to say 1900s because that could go all the way up to the 90s.
Amber: I don't want to talk about the 90s.
Brittany: You know anybody from the 90s? US.
Amber: Wow. So here's the abstract. “Classroom management is reported to be among the greatest difficulties for beginning music educators.”
Brittany: Can’t imagine why.
Amber: Seriously. “The purpose of this literature review was to examine extent research studies on the topic of classroom management in K through 12 classroom music. Research topics included the components of classroom management, pre-service and in service teacher beliefs and perceptions regarding classroom management, and approaches to classroom management. Findings indicated no clear agreement on the components of classroom management among researchers.” Doesn't that make you freak out?
Brittany: I have so many thoughts about this.
Amber: I know. “Nevertheless, classroom management is an area of concern for both pre-service and in-service teachers and educators have expressed a desire for more preparation in this area. In addition, results of international studies indicated that pre-service teachers from diverse cultures may have had differing expectations for various aspects of classroom management.” Wow.
Brittany: Imagine.
Amber: People from different cultures have different experiences.
Brittany: Wow.
Amber: That's not a dissing Langstaff. He had to write that because you have to prove points. Anyways, back to the abstract.
Brittany: And also, people will think that their way is the only way, in the highway.
Amber: We're not ready for that conversation.
Brittany: Okay.
Amber: “I found little empirical research on specific strategies for classroom management in the music classroom. Implications for practice and recommendations for further research are included.”
Brittany: Can we talk about this definition thing?
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Amber.
Amber: What do you mean definition? Definition of classroom management? of class. Definition recognition. Make those teachers go to loco.
Brittany: My–My whole, like, mind is stilled, and I was like, ‘hang on.’ I do everything based on a definition. I need a definition. I know that sounds so dumb.
Amber: No, you are very, like, in that way, you are very type A.
Brittany: Yes. Oh, in that way it's I'm thinking. I have type A minus. I need a definition so that I can understand how to move forward. Once I have the definition, I can be like, ‘Oh, this is different from this, which is different from this.’
Amber: Clear expectations.
Brittany: What do you mean that from all of these articles, all of these research studies that no one has defined what classroom management is, and not only that, but the components that make up classroom management?
Amber: You want to hear another one? I guess. I was reading, as I do in my spare time. I was reading Teaching General Music by Carlos Abril and Brent Gault.
Brittany: Okay.
Amber: That is an academic reading that I think we should do a book review on.
Brittany: I can't wait.
Amber: What is general music?
Brittany: What?
Amber: How do you define general music?
Brittany: What?
Amber: We're not actually gonna talk about that, but it's the same concept where there are so many ideas and thoughts and components to it that it is beyond definition.
Brittany: But I feel like this should not be something that is that abstract to have that result.
Amber: What is tonality, Brittany?
Brittany: Amber? I have some choice words that I can't use.
Amber: I'm just saying.
Brittany: Although I am spicy.
But like, I feel like classroom management has enough things to put it into a place. But in that way, no wonder why new teachers don't know what the flahoodle is going on.
Amber: Fahoodle is now trademarked by patterns of practice.
Brittany: Thank you. They–no wonder. And I the reason why I came across–you had given me this article when I said that I wanted to do a presentation on classroom management, which I'm so excited for.
But as I was planning my presentation, I was like, ‘what are the components?’ And I had looked in a few separate areas and everybody had something different. And then I read this article and I was like, no wonder.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Because everybody thinks of different things. And sometimes, in the shower this morning, I was like, ‘but what about behavior management?
How much is behavior management in classroom management? Does behavior management involve itself in classroom management plans?’ But also those are two things that are so integrated into each other that you can't separate them.
Amber: But now let's also talk about developmental appropriateness and lesson planning. And all of the other things that go into your daily life as a teacher.
Brittany: I’m having a mother-loving coronary right now.
Amber: The cortisol levels are through the roof.
Brittany: So let's start. We talked about the not one definition.
There is no one ring.
Brittany: And then the other components. So some of the stuff that they said that were possible components.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Some of the components that were addressed through a variety of studies addresses behavior deemed unacceptable. That's an older article from the 80s. Skill categories like lesson planning, establishing classroom procedures and systems, consistent enforcement of expectations, building relationships, maximized allocation for instruction, arrangement of activities for prompting student engagement and achievement, proactive behavior management. Someone just said, straight-up discipline.
Amber: Oh, oh, I need to stop you right there. I need to. Classroom management versus discipline.
Brittany: Not the same.
Amber: Why?
Brittany: I think that also depends on your definition of discipline.
Amber: Right. I know. I know. I know. Because we also think of discipline as being a very negative thing. At least when I hear that word, I'm like, ye!
Brittany: I think we've traded that word for consequences, because it's, in a sense, a little bit more gentle, but at the same time, there is a matter of discipline in keeping yourself to a high standard and expectation. So it's like, ugh.
Amber: I know.
Brittany: But in the way that I'm seeing this here, it's like, discipline.
Amber: Yeah. Like, get the paddle out. Don't do that. Anyways.
Brittany: Behavior management aligned with instructional goals and classroom activities, addressing negative behaviors and monitoring events before negative things occur. I like that because it's really thinking about the preemptive, but then it's saying negative behaviors.
And it's like, how else do we define that? And then those who use the term in the narrowest sense, appear to equate it with behavior management or classroom discipline. So it's like all of these people have these separate ideas and it's not quite coming into one thing.
Amber: Yeah. It really is wild because it even looks different among several spaces.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: Because that's one thing that this article touched on was, how does this look, why does this look different in a music classroom setting than it does in a general classroom setting?
Brittany: Right.
Amber: And the amount of children that you have compared to the other settings. One thing I noticed in here was something about ensembles versus general music settings. And it seemed as though general music teachers experienced higher challenges in classroom management than ensembles did. Even though ensembles have more people.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: I wondered if that's because of the rationale for being there and the want to be there and also the developmental challenges that exist.
Amber: But also the PK-6 data that they collected, or sorry, the general music data that they collected, they said that there was an uneven amount of like a very heavy amount of PK-6.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Versus ensembles, which are typically 4-12, if not six or 7-12, depending on what state you're in.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: So it's like those kids are older and they need more research to see what is happening in those secondary level on. So they're not really looking at those higher level general music classes.
Yes.
Brittany: Either. So yeah.
Amber: And I also noticed as I'm reading through, I'll read this verbatim from the article really quick just to give some context for the listener. But it says, Caldarella, 2017 examined the classroom management styles of educators and popular music programs who identified with the teaching style of a facilitator.
Brittany: Mm hmm.
Amber: And it goes on to describe some other things, and it says, "Students in this study reported a greater sense of engagement when educators exercised low control." And then it describes in a different study from Talşik, I'm hope I'm saying that right,from 2015, four styles of classroom management being authoritarian, authoritative, laissez faire and indifferent.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: And so I was reading this and I really started thinking about my job as a facilitator teacher.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Not necessarily a dictator or authoritarian. And we come back to that idea of in the Culturally Responsive Teaching text.
Brittany: I know what you're talking about.
Amber: Zaretta Hammond.
Brittany: I know what you're talking about, though.
Amber: Yes.
Culturally Responsive Teaching and the Brain, that book, being a warm demander in the classroom.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: So having these high expectations still, but also giving room for student autonomy so that they don't feel like we are the only one in control.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: And I think sometimes that's what pre-K through 6, coming back to your point that you had made previously that we are lacking so much is we don't want to give up the reins to children because they're children.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: But they are children. They need to be taught how to be a leader or even how to be a good follower.
Brittany: Right. And at the same time, being a facilitator doesn't mean that it's laissez faire, as in, they’re here is no control in the classroom.
Amber: Right.
Brittany: You still set up all of those systems classroom management wise, those procedures and those other things. So your kids can take it and run with it and make it something even more than what it started with.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: So there is some give and take in those places. But yeah, that authoritarian, sit down, and that's what I grew up with. I had no, like, no desire to be general music. I didn't even understand what really great general music teachers were doing until I was halfway through my music ed degree, because I was always thinking I was going to be band.
But my general music experience in elementary school was sit down, sit in your chair, open up the book, and you sing for 40 minutes.
Amber: Ew.
Brittany: Yes. And I got a tiny taste of something different at the end of fifth grade because my teacher actually died.
Amber: Oh, no!
Brittany: I'm so sorry, trigger warning.
Amber: R.I.P.
Brittany: Yeah, she was she was just very old-fashioned. She was one of those teachers from the 70’s who learned how to do things a certain way, could play piano, could sing. She was just one of those women.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: And her training defined her.
Amber: And I think sometimes we run into that challenge where you have somebody who is in a pre-k through six position, who is a magnificent performer.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: And they have to dial it back quite a bit. And I think sometimes they struggle with that.
Brittany: It has to be very selfless.
Amber: And that's when that authoritarianism can kind of ramp up. When you can't leave your ego at the door. Like, because if you have a kid who says, “I hate music.”
Okay.
Brittany: Yeah, but some people will get really offended by it.
Amber: They will.
What was it? Jill was telling me a story when I was working with her.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: And she would say this all the time to kids. They would say, you're not my friend. And she's like, well, I have plenty of other friends. I'm like, that's so funny, but it's true. You can't like kids bully you.
Brittany: It's weird for someone who's 30 to be friends with someone who's 10.
Amber: Oh, my gosh. We're not going to talk about that.
Brittany: Anyway.
Amber: So what are some things that teachers can do to feel better about their classroom management?
Brittany: Talking specifically pre-service teachers, new teachers, the findings in this suggested that if you want to get better at classroom management, you can read about it, you can do all sorts of these other things, but watching it happen in real time, whether from videos, or seeing it in real life. And then also having the opportunity to reflect on it, whether through somebody who is asking questions about what someone is doing or by like filling out a questionnaire, otherwise, those reflective things will help in addition to actually just getting a chance to practice it.
Amber: Yes. I hear this all the time from undergraduate students that they wish so desperately that there was a class on classroom management.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: And I get that. I empathize with it. But truly, you learn by doing it.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: It's like if you were to only read about art and you were only to read or even watch people do art, you only watch Bob Ross.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: It's very different when you actually do it. But that doesn't mean that you have to do it on your own.
Brittany: No. There's so many ways I know in my undergrad, we would get students together and we would hang out and we would teach each other our lessons before we did it in class the next day.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Did you ever do that?
Amber: No, because I was, we weren't asked to do teaching stuff in class.
Brittany: Really?
Amber: We weren't. So I never did teaching demonstrations in front of my peers. I did conducting, but that was very different and it was all focused on error detection. I know, right?
Brittany: So in your methods, you never–
Amber: Nope.
Brittany: Whoa.
Amber: I know. I know. I know. I love my undergrad experience, but there are some deficits.
Brittany: Yeah. So part of my program, and did you have to do observations?
Amber: Yes, you have to..
Brittany: So you have observations. Part of my methods courses was you, like at least four times a semester, you were teaching something in front of–
Amber: I wish.
Brittany: Yeah. And I, and I in front of your professor and in front of your peers, and your peers had to give you feedback and your professors had to give you feedback.
Amber: Yes. Very valuable, very scary.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: But I, more and more programs need to get on that train. And I know it's hard to coordinate. I'm not always in the best place to do that. And you, universities do have to have really good relationships with their local school districts.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: But it's hard.
Brittany: Which is another reason why I'm grateful.
I was a student of Jill Reese in my undergrad and, you know, Christian Bernhard and Kate Levy and like, those professors went the extra mile.
Amber: They get it.
Brittany: To ensure that I had classroom experience at all grade levels, often.
Amber: Because that's really how you get it.
Brittany: That's how you learn.
Amber: And that's something that is supported by some of the articles that were cited in this literature review.
I have something highlighted here that says, participants reported that they believed their preparation for classroom management was insufficient. Meaning what we were talking about, their undergrad experiences didn't do it for them. The most reported for satisfaction, sorry, the most reported sources for satisfactory development in this area were mentorship and field work or dedicated course on classroom management.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: Now, I don't know what a dedicated course would look like. I don't know where you're gonna fit it into your schedule of 18 credits.
Brittany: But when you have zero credit courses, Amber?
Amber: Correct. But there really is. When you are a first year teacher, you hopefully are lucky enough to be paired with a mentor from your district. Some districts do that, some districts don't. But I highly encourage that you seek out other mentoring opportunities.
Brittany: Especially, if you're like me, and ended up with a special ed teacher, as your person, because I was not only with a special ed teacher, I was a special ed teacher who had never taught a full group class before from my first job, she was like that, and I did not feel like I got what I needed to. So instead, I would visit, in addition to that, the high school teacher across the street and check in with him, at least every once every two weeks, if not calling or texting or doing something. You need someone in your corner. And if it can't be someone who is from your district or even close by, how do you find other mentors, Amber?
Amber: Oh, so it's closed now, but look out for next year. We do a mentorship program through the Gordon Institute of Music Learning Theory, and it is focused on teaching you the ropes or how to implement music learning theory in your classroom. But as somebody who opted for this opportunity, my first year teaching, I got a lot more than just learning about music learning theory out of that practice.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: I learned a lot about classroom management. Sadie Friedman Pincus was my mentor.
She's amazing. Has all of her Orff levels, and all of her GIML levels.
Brittany: Oh, my gosh.
She's a powerhouse!
Amber: I know. So even if it's marketed towards doing this thing, I got a lot out of it in so many other ways. My first year teaching, I also reached out to a lot of local elementary music teachers, too.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: Can I admit something embarrassing?
Brittany: Please.
Amber: I didn't know what locomotor and nonlocomotor was.
Brittany: But if you're never taught how are you supposed to know?
Amber: I didn’t know that stuff!
Brittany: If I didn't have the Great Jill Reese, I would not know that.
Amber: I know.
Brittany: There were so many people who asked me questions about certain things I had mentioned in some videos, and I'm just like, how do you not know this? But not everybody gets a general music powerhouse as a professors. And it's, it's hard.
Amber: So, find a mentor, find somebody who is willing to spend some time with you, treat them to coffee, or their favorite beverage. Be cordial, send thank you letters.
Brittany: And there's nothing wrong with asking.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: Because even on the Tikky-Tak, I have found such tremendous community with so many strangers. And some people who, and you can ask anything and post a video or you can message anybody who is like really an expert on the topic. And music teachers are the best people because they want to see everybody grow.
Amber: Most.
Brittany: Most. There are some who don't.
I already accepted that this episode is going to be long. I hope they're okay with that. Yeah, I am.
I think this is so important.
Amber: Listeners, I hope you are okay with those.
Brittany: Yeah, and if not, stop listening. So we talked about in what teachers can do if they are found in a situation where they need to improve their classroom management.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: And we said to find a mentor, seek out opportunities for you to practice. I want to add in that places where you can look: summer camps are great, substitute teaching. Literally, if not, for my program, all of the rest of the things on how to treat a human right and how to get herds of 200 people from one place to the next. I learned from summer camps.
Amber: The more you can work with children.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: The better off you are going to be. And it doesn't have to be in a teaching capacity.
Brittany: No, it can just be talking with kids and getting from like–
Amber: Daycare.
Brittany: From daycare driving a kid home.
Amber: Yep.
Brittany: That sounds weird. I mean, if it's a family member, talking to kids on the regular and getting inside their head.
Amber: Yes. Yes, because we forget what it's like to be a kid. I love being a kid.
That's why I love my job, because I get to be a kid.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: If it's going well that day. But.
Brittany: If it's going well.
Amber: And that's essentially some of the things that in Langstaff's implications for practice and suggestions for further research, those are some of the things that he suggested in their thing. Summation. Again, there is no universal definition. One of the things that we might consider is creating a definition so that it's a starting point for many of us, I'm not doing that.
Brittany: I'm trying, but for my own for my own use insanity, not for anyone else's.
Amber: Yeah.There is some stuff on here. If you are finding yourself in a PBS school, there is a little bit in here on PBS and how I might look for the music classroom and how that affects our classroom management. So if you're looking for more information on that, I highly suggest you check out the article. But in terms of how we're using this in our practice, I think–I don't think that it's something that we need to belabor at this point. Because I think it's been very evident so far.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Amber: Now we get to talk about the cool stuff.
Brittany: Oh. That was cool, but anyway.
Amber: It was so cool. But I told Brittany that we have a somewhat spicy, Reddit article today. So–
Brittany: I like being surprised.
Amber: I know. So this comes, again, from r/MusicEd. At some point, I might dip into the r/Teachers page just to see what's over there. Yeah, sure. So the title says, “Am I overreacting, experiencing mild rage over district email?”
And it is posted by greta464.
Brittany: I love drama.
Amber: I know.
Especially when it doesn't have to do–
TOGETHER: –with us!
Brittany: We're gonna rate someone else's drama. Anyway.
Amber: Exactly. So here is the post text. “We start in service next week.
My district sent out several emails about meetings, PD sessions, etc. On one particular day, all the core teachers meet with other teachers to create unit plans. Instead of letting all the district music teachers, art teachers, et cetera, meet together, this is what we will be doing.”
And they insert a screenshot of some of the text from the email they received from their administrators. So the email says, “On the 30th, related arts teachers will work to develop a plan on how they will support the core content teachers in their building throughout the year.
Your principal will communicate you their expectations. This plan will need to be submitted to your principal, and they continue their posttext.” What the actual flahootie?
Brittany: But it's not Flahoodle.
Amber: Use your imagination, listener. “I'm very tired of justifying myself through the lens of supporting core content teachers. These children get one and a half hours of reading and one and a half hours of math every single day. They only get music once a week for 45 minutes. I want to hear their ideas on how they can support us. Whew! Sorry for the rant.”
Brittany: Spice.
Amber: And everything nice. It is really spicy.
Brittany: Tell me your initial reaction. What do you want to do?
Amber: I don't know what I want to do. I want–I want to not have to justify my job every year at the beginning of the school year and every single time I teach a class and always be thinking, “what's going to happen next year if I don't have my room? What's going to happen if–”
Brittany: Me, because it's happened, unfortunately.
Amber: Even in a district that is very supportive of the arts, it is–it has happened.
Brittany: It's happened. I've been kicked out of my room five times.
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: In my entire career, and I've only been teaching for eight years.
Amber: It is so..
Brittany: “I will continue to be flexible. I will continue to be flexible.
I will continue to be flexible.”
I–What I want to do right away, which is the wrong reaction, is to be like, ‘hi there. Thank you for the update.
Can I also get a plan on how they're going to support us? Thanks. I just wanted to double check.’
Amber: Yeah. I don't think people get it that...
Brittany: No.
Amber: We have the same accreditations as a classroom teacher does. If not more. We are a specialized part of teaching.
Brittany: Right. No one is going to their undergrad for elementary ed and also having to be an expert on math or be an expert on ELA. Am I correct?
Amber: I don't know.
Brittany: I don't know either, but like–
Amber: Expert, maybe. I mean, maybe if you're doing 6-12, but that's a different certification.
Brittany: That is, and–
Amber: We are K-12!
Brittany: You’re becoming a professional musician at the same time as getting our teaching degree.
Amber: Yes. And it's not all fun and games in undergrad.
It's not, ooh, I get to play music for my homework. Yay. No, it's, I get to stare–I get to stare at a manuscript of notation that has so much black text on it and redo it over and over and over again. And oh, I also have to think about how I'm breathing into my instrument and, oh, I'm not sitting up right. Oh, my professor is going to say I didn't spend enough time on this, even though I spent two hours on this.
And, oh, I have to spend another hour on my arpeggios and scales in every single key, which, by the way, correct me if I'm wrong, there's 12 of them.
Brittany: Well, that'd only if you’re counting the major ones.
Amber: Oh, my God..
Brittany: Minor, whole scale. And then you're trying to match with your, you got your repertoire for your jazz band, you got your repertoire for orchestra, and then for band. And then...
Amber: I have my lesson plan that I have to submit for my teacher.
Brittany: Mm hmm.
Amber: And then I also have my stupid gen ed credits.
Brittany:Philosophy class you have to take.
Amber: I love my philosophy class that I took because I didn't anything. I just got to talk. Oh, my God.
Because it’s–
Brittany: Far out.
Amber: Me and my philosophy are besties.
Brittany: Sure, or–
Amber: We're not here to talk about that.
Brittany: So what I think, if I were to give advice to this person, I think it would be worth having a conversation, like man to man, woman to woman, person to person.
Amber: There we go.
Brittany: About what it suggests because they don't have to, we are trained, and I remember this from day one of Music Ed school in my intro to public school music class, is you will be fighting for your whole life. Unfortunately. And you will find times where you will not be fighting. Someone might be fighting for you if you are a fine arts director, which is incredible. But they do not have the awareness that you have to, that you are, you got a sense of, ‘I'm in danger at all times.’
Amber: “I'm in danger.”
Brittany: It's so silly, but it's, I feel that a lot when I'm teaching music. And if I am not communicating, if I am not constantly being on and being aware and making myself available to answer questions and to figure things out within my building, within my district, I feel like those things can be easily taken away.
Amber: They can be so easily taken away.
It's hard to earn.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: It is very easy to lose.
Brittany: It is.
Amber: And when you lose it, you can't necessarily get it back, which is when we start making very small concessions. It's opening up a door that we might not see into a ladder that leads into an empty stairwell that I get pushed down.
Brittany: Right. So I feel like having a conversation with an administrator to say, I want you to know that I understand what you're asking. However, this is what it suggests. And it suggests that I am lesser than these other teachers who have the same things that I do.
Amber: Yes. And I think that's that's the part that hurts the most is it's–it's a very swift knife.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: But then it turns a little bit when you realize that you have lesser value in the education system. As evident by this plan.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Surprisingly, this Reddit post had 39 comments. Which for a music ed post is a lot of comments.
Brittany: It is, yeah.
Amber: So some of them, the top comment says “valid crash out,” and they suggest going to the union or the board. I don't know if I would do that, depending.
Brittany: It would be worth a conversation. I wouldn't say the board. I would say that union rep would be a really good first step.
Amber: Yeah. They also suggest coming up to–coming up with a unified approach with the other arts related people that are being asked to do this. And I think that's very important. You having a strong relationship with your other special areas teachers is going to significantly improve your quality of life at work.
Brittany: Yes. And if you are a person who is, unfortunately, finds yourself constantly bringing things like this up to your administrator, sometimes squeaky things get the oil and sometimes you get dubbed as either being needy or overreacting.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: And that's really unfortunate because you are the only one advocating for your program. So of course it's going to come from you.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: So having a whole group approach might help your case.
Amber: Yeah.
Brittany: That's so tough.
Amber: It is. There are a few people who recommend going to the administrator with peer-viewed research saying, here's how we already support classroom teachers.
Brittany: 100%.
Amber: And they actually do give some citations, which is really cool. I won't read those citations because I haven't read them myself, so I don't want to give false information.
Brittany: Sure.
Amber: But knowing that you have that background knowledge, it is more work for you. You are going to do more work to advocate for your program.
Brittany: Yes.
Amber: Bummer. But it will speak volumes because administrators do respond to data.
Brittany: Yes, they do.
Amber: Very strongly. A lot of people sympathize. They said, “this would enrage me.”
I do like comment, they say, "We did this last year. Maximum Baloney. Do you really think anyone in Gen Ed will give a care if we collaborate or not? No, busy work.”
Brittany: Right? Well, and then on the other end of that, part of it is defending your position, but also how great would it be if you had a different option for PD? So I would say then another great thing you can do is come up with a different option for PD, whether it's going and watching another teacher or from another district, of having a different plan in place to suggest instead of that, in addition. Now again, that's lots of work. But we also know what it's like to sit through PDs that don't mean anything for us. Something I loved that we did in Chautauqua County when I used to live there was when everybody else had a PD day in October, it was superintendent's conference day for everybody else.
We–all of the districts were really small, so we only had like two or three music teachers per full district. So we would meet as an entire county for a PD day, and different people would plan different sessions, and you rotate every year, like this group would do this and then this would this based on a theme. And it was nice because it was a way for us to establish community and see each other and get to know all of the people in the county, but also to have a day for us instead of doing a PD that doesn't mean anything.
For all of the reasons that professional development exists for general teachers.
Amber: Yeah, the same reasons could probably be overlapped into why related PD should be implemented and supported for special areas.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: It does establish that sense of community. Highly. Being able to talk to each other, because nobody has the same position that we do. And being able to say, like, K-5, here are all the students.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: Are you also experiencing this challenge with the student? It's getting into the weeds a little bit of this, but man, it would be a bummer to get that email.
And I empathize with that person quite a bit, but the comments are very spicy. I can't read some of them because we're trying to be a PG-13 thing.
Brittany: Right. Oh, there's two, so many. There are some times when I will be like, okay, music teachers need to calm down. Cause sometimes we are so up in arms about things. But this is–this is one to be up in arms about.
Amber: Yes. It is. And I think it unified approach coming at this from a team aspect rather than being attacked approach, because administrators can be just as defensive.
Brittany: Right. And they have a lot more power than you do.
Amber: Hopefully they wield that power responsibly and respectfully.
But they are also people just like we are people. Yes. And it's hard for us to remember. And sometimes we don't see everything that they're also balancing, not to empathize with the enemy, not that administrators I'm an enemy, but–
Brittany: With the current antagonist story.
Amber: There could be a lot of other things happening that we don't know about. I know we have administrators who are being asked to do things that they can't necessarily share with us on why they're being asked to do those things.
Brittany: Right.
Amber: But they've also done the work of making a positive relationship with us so that we can trust them in what they're telling us.
Brittany: Or hopefully.
Amber: And that really, like, administrators should have your back, but that doesn't always the case, as evident by this person's experience. Ah!
Brittany: In all things, approach slowly, carefully. If you don't have a response, right away, think on
And if you need time to give a respectful response, give yourself time.
Amber: I highly suggest in your email settings, set up an undo button for 10 seconds, where if you do send something out of impulse, you have 10 seconds.
Brittany: Are you kidding? Undo your email? You have that ready to go in your email? Is that a setting?
Amber: Yes.
Brittany: I know that I can, like, go back and, like, reach into it. Like, I have to go through 30 settings, but there's just like an undo button somewhere?
Amber: For, like, 10 seconds. Yes.
Brittany: I'm sorry, we have to stop this podcast so we can show me where that is.
Amber: It's really cool. At least an Outlook or and in Gmail.
Brittany: Wild.
Amber: Like, I have a setup because I overthink what I say all the time.
If you do have a response to somebody, one, an email chain is really great in some ways where you do have a paper trail. Yep. It's also not great where text and tone aren't always coming across as you intend.
There is a great tool. It does use AI, so I'm sorry about that, but it's called Goblin tools, so I think we can forgive it for being a goblin. Where it's called ‘judge.’
And you put in your text and it will say, it will tell you how your text is coming across.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: And as somebody who is neurodivergent, and I'm sure some of our listeners are as well, I need to know how my text is coming across or I need that reminder that, no, this is encouraging and you are communicating this clearly.
Brittany: Yeah.
Amber: Or even just asking a colleague to look at an email for you. Just get as many hands in teamwork into that as you can.
[OUTRO MUSIC]
Brittany: Well, anyway, that was Patterns and Practice.
Amber: And if you're here now, we get to share a secret.
Brittany: It's Amber's secret this week.
Amber: I got a weird one.
Brittany: Oh, tell me.
Amber: I was in grade school, and I had a crush on a boy, and it made me really want to get into Power Rangers because he liked Power Rangers. Because I am a young, impressionable woman who has to do things for men. Not anymore.
Brittany: Oh, my God.
Amber: You can cut that if you want, but–
Brittany: No, but the last two have been about relationships.
Amber: Oh, no.
Brittany: So come up with some other secrets.
But anyway, go on.
Amber: But no, no, no. Okay. When I was in grade school, I was babysat by a person, and we would hang out with her kids. We would play Power Rangers all the time.
Brittany: Okay.
Amber: In a funeral home parking lot.
Brittany: What?
Amber: I was the yellow Power Ranger.
Brittany: You know what? We are defined by what color Power Ranger we choose.
Amber: Yes, but secret? I had a fight with somebody when I was four years old, who told me, “girls can only like purple and pink and sometimes yellow."
And I was like, "That's not true, because I like green." And I was really just mad at them.
Brittany: Well, anyway…Amber's gonna throw anybody down about their favorite color.
Amber: Yeah, man.
Brittany: Please meet us at “Insert address here.”
Amber: Yeah, so we are at Patterns and Practice. You can visit us at 42 Wallaby Way, Sydney. No, patterns and practices on Facebook, Patterns and practice pod, on Instagram, Patterns and practiceice.atterns and practice pod.com.
If you want to check out our website, leave us a review. I don't know. We're not good at this part.
Brittany: That's all for today on patterns and practiceice, if you like what you heard, please subscribe to wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us on–
Amber: It's been written the whole time.
Brittany: Facebook and Instagram @pattersandpracticepod or our website, pattits andractice.com. Have a great day! Make good choices!
Amber: Do-da-la-doo-doo-doo.
Brittany: Meow.